Modified Vintage versus New Technology?
I have several Modified/upgraded Thoren's Tables that sound wonderful, in fact better than the Pro-Ject RM5 SE table that they replaced. What are the members thoughts on the subject? I am using a highly modified TD160/ Pro-Ject 9CC arm/ Sumiko Blackbird HOMC combo in my main rig, and am planing on moving the arm/cart to a Modified TD125 this weekend and installing a Jelco/ Sumiko BPS Evo III on the TD160. In the wings is a TD150 as well!
Regards, Jim
Discussion started by ehoove , on 914 days ago
Hi Jim,
I am naturally sceptical about mods as I question why the manufacturer failed to include them if they make so much difference.
Two questions here -
1. what exactly is the mod and what is the scientific basis of how it should effect sound quality?
2. How did you prove that the mod makes a real difference and does not introduce compromises somewhere?
If these mods really do make a differene then the manufacturers should be aware and news should certainly lead to better designed products.
My experience to date is that the benefits of latest technology nearly always the benefits of trying to 'bolt on' improvements to earlier ones.
Just look at BD-Audio vs CD, for example - 256 times the quantisation resolution due to 24 bits rather than 16 - an undisputable improvement (if the speakers are up to the job of you hearing it).
Yes there are those that argue that analoge does not suffer quantisation problems but the end result in audio is nearly always overidden by the weakest link(s) in the audio chain, which are different for different media but an overwhleming influence is always the loudspeaker.
Kevin
I am naturally sceptical about mods as I question why the manufacturer failed to include them if they make so much difference.
Two questions here -
1. what exactly is the mod and what is the scientific basis of how it should effect sound quality?
2. How did you prove that the mod makes a real difference and does not introduce compromises somewhere?
If these mods really do make a differene then the manufacturers should be aware and news should certainly lead to better designed products.
My experience to date is that the benefits of latest technology nearly always the benefits of trying to 'bolt on' improvements to earlier ones.
Just look at BD-Audio vs CD, for example - 256 times the quantisation resolution due to 24 bits rather than 16 - an undisputable improvement (if the speakers are up to the job of you hearing it).
Yes there are those that argue that analoge does not suffer quantisation problems but the end result in audio is nearly always overidden by the weakest link(s) in the audio chain, which are different for different media but an overwhleming influence is always the loudspeaker.
Kevin
Actually the Thorens tables are worthy upgrade units. They can be upgraded in the following areas: Sound deadener on the bearing and top plates, as well as the inner platter to reduce noise and ringing, sturdier bottom plate to add rigidity to plinth as well as adding more mass to the plinth it self. Other upgrades include installing new thrust plate in the bearing as well as polishing the bearing, arm board replacement, and upgrading tone arm. As far as why the factory did not do these upgrades, Thorens did offer a TD160 Super which addressed several of these items at an increase in price. Most manual tables of that era were designed to a price point, and these modifications just lower the background noise of the presentation. Less Noise = more information retrieval is audible. IMHO
Regards,
Jim
Regards,
Jim
Due to the Blacker background and the lack of surface noise picked up by the Sumiko Blackbird, it is some times startling on the most dynamic Classical pieces. The real improvements are in the articulation of the mids/highs, the detail gained in the upperbass, and the increase in decay time. Classical and Jazz piano are particularly impressive in this regard. This table is driven through a DB Systems DB8 Phono preamp upgraded in input to match the Blackbird. The power is Solid state Acurus A200 amps (3) driving Tri-amped (active crossover) Hardwood (Maple) framed Magnapan MGIIIa's. With 1000 watts driving each speaker, headroom is not an issue.
Regards,
Jim
Regards,
Jim
This area of discussion is of particular interest to me at the moment. I'm just getting back into vinyl after abandoning it as a teenager. Currently, I'm restoring an Ariston RD40 turntable with a Grace 727 tonearm. So far, all I have done is clean it up, put a new belt on it, get a new old stock H+ Grado cardridge with an H+/s stylus installed, and align it with a Feickert protractor. I'm waiting on a stroboscope to test it's rpm rate. It's pretty good the way it is, but I have this nagging feeling it could be a lot better. Perhaps, all you vinyl gurus out there could teach me a few things about how to get the most out of this set-up. What else should I be looking into? A new tonearm, a new mat, a new clamp? I'm not sure where else to go with it? Any thoughts?
Ed,
Good luck with the Ariston RD40, they have a solid reputation as does the Grace 727 arm. On the TD160, I dampened the sub chassis that the bearing resides on as well as the inner platter, Built a heavier plinth, and cut a sturdier bottom plate for the plinth to add rigidity. These are things you can do to the Ariston I believe. There are other things that are probably only common to the Thorens models. The TD 160 is pictured in my avatar. FWIW. Experiment with various mat materials, and get a good weight or clamp to match the bearing weight capability of the bearing in your table.
Good Luck,
Jim
Good luck with the Ariston RD40, they have a solid reputation as does the Grace 727 arm. On the TD160, I dampened the sub chassis that the bearing resides on as well as the inner platter, Built a heavier plinth, and cut a sturdier bottom plate for the plinth to add rigidity. These are things you can do to the Ariston I believe. There are other things that are probably only common to the Thorens models. The TD 160 is pictured in my avatar. FWIW. Experiment with various mat materials, and get a good weight or clamp to match the bearing weight capability of the bearing in your table.
Good Luck,
Jim
Many old turntables can be tastefully modded/upgraded to either surpass or equal current budget offerings.
We've learned a lot since the 1970s about isolation, vibration dampening, the quality of cabling, mats, clamps, etc.
We've learned a lot since the 1970s about isolation, vibration dampening, the quality of cabling, mats, clamps, etc.
Should be easy to determine the effectiveness of mods also - the main efffect would be on dynamic range. This is the ratio of the amplitude of the loudest possible undistorted sine wave to the root mean square (rms) noise amplitude. Objective measurements would be nice here.
Kevin
Kevin
Most Thorens Tables (the TD 160, 124, 125) work very well once brought upto spec!
I have been working on the three mentioned above and they can easily perform at the very best levels...
I have been working on the three mentioned above and they can easily perform at the very best levels...
HELP!!!! I hooked up the Ariston RD40 to my 2ndary system yesterday and discovered there is an awful 60hz hum. It seems to be generated from the Cary Cad-50's (tube amps). When I cut the plate voltage, the hum goes away. I have tripled checked the grounding cable and tried grounding to the power conditioner instead of the DMC-6 preamp. This does not help. I'm thinking an isolated ground on a separate wall socket for the tube amps might do the trick. Any ideas Evoites? I really want to get the Ariston RD40 going with the tube amps, but that hum is beyond tolerable!
Ed, phono stage is built into the preamp, right? Are you mixing balanced and unbalanced connections between the preamp and power amps? Do other sources hum with the same pre/power amp combo or is it just the TT? Are you using Step-Up Transformers between cartridge and phono pre? Is the phono cable shielded or unshielded?
Read this article: http://www.rane.com/note110.html
(Thanks to Josh for the pin1problem.com resources)
Russ
Read this article: http://www.rane.com/note110.html
(Thanks to Josh for the pin1problem.com resources)
Russ
Hey Russ, The Phono stahge is built into the preamp. I only have unbalanced interconnects. Only the TT hums. All other components are fine. I'm not using a step-up transformer and trhe phono cable is definitely not shielded. Curently I have the ground cable from the TT hooked up to the ground on the preamp and the ground from the preamp linked to the ground on the Monster power conditioner. This dampens the noise, but does not eliminate it. I have no trouble at all with my other Spectral preamp (the DMC-10) just the DMC-6 is doing this. Maybe the ground on the pre is not functioning properly? I'm thinkin about running an isolated ground from the outside to the TT. I'll check the link you provided too. Thanks for your help!!
Hmmm... (no pun intended) Does the hum go away when the phono is hooked up and the TT motor is turned off? That might indicate a cartridge/TT issue like the Grado/Rega hum problem. If you can interchange phono cables, try a shielded cable. Going to a shielded cable quieted my phono rig significantly.
If it's not a TT/Cart/Phono cable issue, it's time to play "find the gound loop". The Rane article might give you some ideas on what components/connections could be causing the problem.
You can disconnect all the other sources from the preamp except phono and power amp(s). If that fixes it, reconnect the other sources until the hum returns to find the component causing the ground loop. If that's not it, try lifting the power ground on just preamp, just power amps or both. Beyond that, I'm out of ideas. Good luck.
Russ
If it's not a TT/Cart/Phono cable issue, it's time to play "find the gound loop". The Rane article might give you some ideas on what components/connections could be causing the problem.
You can disconnect all the other sources from the preamp except phono and power amp(s). If that fixes it, reconnect the other sources until the hum returns to find the component causing the ground loop. If that's not it, try lifting the power ground on just preamp, just power amps or both. Beyond that, I'm out of ideas. Good luck.
Russ
Russ, Experimentation has lead to the painful discovery that the Hum is coming from the phono stage in the preamp with nothing hooked up all except the amps. I haven't had time to tear the cover off the preamp and see if there are any obvious circuit failures in the phono stage. Will be doing that soon. If I can't figure it out, I'll be ditching the DMC-6 for a new preamp. I'll probably go with a DMC10 Delta, if I can find one at a good price.
I'm addicted to vintage idler drive broadcast turntables dropped into massive plinths, with vintage unipivot arms holding wood bodied Denon 103's. Of course this recipe can become as expensive as a new table, but for me at least, holds much more appeal.
An update is in order - My current rigs: TD160/Pro-ject 9CC/Dynavector 20X (VPI version) High level Mods, TD150/Jelco 750D/Sumiko Blackbird, New Plinth and medium level mods, TD125/Magnapan Unitrac1/Denon DL103D (refurb w/light mods)
Regards,
Jim
Regards,
Jim
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